Why you should never try to date women who friend zone you when you ask them on a date.
In this video coaching newsletter, I discuss an email from a viewer who, despite reading my book, is trying to convert a woman who told him upfront that she was only interested in being friends when he asked her out on a date. Now he has taken her out twice on “dates,” but nothing has happened. In reality, she probably likes the free dinners and attention, but it’s going nowhere.
He is confused and uncertain of what to do and is too scared to go for the kiss, since she told him upfront she wasn’t interested, but he believes he will change her mind. He is ignoring that she was not excited to go out on a date with him, because he’s so focused on his high romantic interest in her. My comments are in bold italics like this below in the body of his email.
This guy claims he’s enjoyed my book and videos, but he’s got a situation here where he’s basically doing the opposite of what the book suggests. And it’s interesting how maybe he just didn’t notice what I teach in the book, because he hasn’t been through it 10 or 15 times. Maybe he just read it once. But he met a girl, got her number, asked her out on text, and before she even responded, she says, “I want to make it clear that I’m strictly interested in going out with you as friends. I’m not interested in dating or a relationship at all.”
And so he takes this as, “Okay, I’ll agree to be friends first.” Again, this is the complete opposite of what the book teaches, But you’ve got to remember, each time you read or listen or watch something and you go through it, you’re only going to retain maybe 8 to 10% of it. So, I’m assuming maybe that part didn’t click, he didn’t see it. Or it’s very possible that he’s just kind of deluding himself because he really likes this girl. And if you’re going to go out on a date, you’re going to ask women out on a date, you’re going to give the greatest gift that you can give anybody, which is the gift of your time.
And also in this case, if you’re asking her out and you’re going to take her to dinner, what are you going to spend, $100, $150, $200 bucks on a dinner? You get a bottle of wine, you’re easily at $300 bucks. Are you really willing to go out with somebody that’s like, “Friends only, no romance. As long as we get that out of the way and we’re clear, we can go out”? Because you want a woman that’s enthusiastic when you ask her out. She’s excited that you asked her out, almost like she kind of feels like she won the lottery by having you ask her out. But instead, this woman’s going, “Hey, nothing’s going to happen. Strictly friendship. If you if you’re cool with that, then I’ll let you take me to dinner and spend money on me,” which is, in essence, what’s going on here.
And so, he’s gone out with her twice. Who knows, maybe she’s in for $400 or $500 bucks at this point. He hasn’t even gotten a kiss or anything yet because he says, “I want to respect the boundaries that she has set.” But the bottom line is he’s interested in sex and romance, and she said up front, “I will only go out with you as long as you understand we’re strictly going out as friends. And he says, okay, but in his mind he’s like, “Oh, she’ll hang out with me, and I’ll convince her what a great guy I am. And then she’ll change her mind and want romance and sex.”
And so, this is the textbook example of why you don’t do this that’s in the book. So with that said, let’s go through his email, maybe get a laugh or two out of it at his expense, because he’s doing the opposite of what the book teaches. And I experienced this enough when I was younger to realize that it always ends in blue balls.
I’ve enjoyed your book and videos and have a challenge I’d like to run by you. I recently met a woman through mutual friends and acquaintances who regularly meet up together. We seem to have great conversations, so the second time we had a chance to talk, I asked her for her phone number, which she provided, as we had talked about getting together for dinner. When I texted her a couple days later and tried to arrange something, she agreed to have dinner but wanted to be clear that she was only seeking friends at this time, not dating or a relationship.
Well, as the book teaches, if you hear something like that, you’re going to say, “Hey, I like you. I’d love to go out with you, but I’m not interested in just friendship. So, if you’re not interested in going out and being open minded to see what could happen, I’m not looking for a relationship either. I don’t even know you well enough, but you seem like a nice girl. You’re fun, you’re cute, and I’d like to hang out with you. But if you’re saying absolutely not, you’re only interested in friendship, only something platonic, there’s no way it could ever go beyond that, then I’m going to pass. And if you change your mind, definitely get in touch.”
That’s what should have happened, but it didn’t. And so, he dogmatically said…
I was unfazed by this and took it lightly, saying I had no expectations attached to my dinner invitation…
Yeah, you did. That’s a lie, dude. You’re lying to yourself.
…though I also indicated my attraction to her.
But here’s the thing, it’s like you’re in a negotiation. She’s saying “friendship only” because maybe you’re marginal. Maybe on a scale of 1 to 10, you’re a 5 in her eyes. She’s like, “Ehhh, maybe I’d go out with him,” but she’s not that excited. And so, she throws in the “friendship” thing to see if you’ll agree to it, which of course, you did. So, that just shows you’re not willing to stand up for yourself and what you believe in. You’re willing to go along with something, deep down, she knows you’re not really into. But because you’re a beta male, you agreed to it. So, therefore, hey, “friends only.”
I played it as being open-minded and easy-going with a bit of humor thrown in.
Yeah, but she made it clear she’s only interested in friendship. And so, from a deal making perspective, you agreed to her offer of friendship. You went out with her knowing full well, and you agreed to it. So, if you’re going to try to weasel out of it later, she’s going to be like, “Hey, I was very clear up front.”
That sounded fine to her and we’ve had two dinner “dates” since then.
How much did you spend on those dates? I’d say probably, if it’s a nice dinner and maybe you got wine thrown in there, that’s $400 or $500 bucks, poof! For what? You don’t even have a kiss on the cheek.
My thinking has been that I would use these getogethers, including those group hangouts, as a way to build attraction through many of the ways you discuss in your book and to slightly flirt whenever the opportunity arose…
This is the problem, though. It’s like, you’re trying to get her attention and validation. Your mindset is completely wrong. Your mindset should be like women have when they accept a romantic date, as, hey, they’re open to whatever is going to happen. “Do I like this guy? Is he good for me? Would he be good in a relationship?” And instead, your mindset is, “How do I get her attention? How do I get her to like me?” This is not how an alpha male thinks. An alpha male is going to be like, “I really don’t want to go out and blow $400 or $500 bucks on two dinner dates and not even get a kiss for it. I’d rather take my mother out to dinner, or my parents out to dinner a couple times and spend some time with them.”
I mean, if you think about it, this is like a reality check for a lot of us. So, maybe you live long distance, you don’t live in the same state as your parents. But if you only see each other once or twice, maybe three times a year, and then you look at their age – and the average life expectancy is like 74-75 in the West, here – if you’re only going to see each other two, three times a year, if that, then how many times are you going to actually see your parents in person before they die? That’s something to think about.
So, when you think about the greatest gift you can give anybody is a gift of your time, and most of the time your parents would love to see you, and you’re going to spend money, would you rather spend money on people that really care for you, or somebody that’s like, “Yeah, I’m not really interested in going out with you. But hey, if you’re cool with going out as friends, I’ll let you take me to dinner and spend lots of money on me.” Which is basically what she agreed to, and you agreed to it. It puts it in a different perspective when you think of it that way.
…hoping for a slow and seamless trip out of the friend zone.
The book says, don’t do it. I’ve been through this. I’ve been through this with thousands and thousands of clients. Unless the girl is a little messed up or structured, there’s like a 99% chance you’re just going to end up with blue balls. You were too weak to say, “Nah, I’m not really into that,” because you’ve got nothing else going on in your life. A man who loves and values himself and has lots of options is just going to be like, “Yeah, I don’t really want to blow $400 or $500 bucks on a couple of dates and just have blue balls to show for it. I can spend a lot less on a girl that will come over and make dinner with me, and we’ll screw each other’s brains out.” It’s like, why? That juice is not worth the squeeze, my friend.
I want to be respectful of our “social contract” as friends, but to subtly indicate I would have interest in more if she does.
Well, that’s what you told her, that you’re interested romantically, but you acquiesced to saying “friends only,” and you’re hoping she’ll change her mind. In other words, you’re hoping if you spend enough time with her and enough money that she’ll see what a good dude you are and say, “Oh, wow, I feel a little damp and moist between my legs. I think you should come over and do something about that.” It’s not going to happen.
We have amazing conversations on a wide range of subjects.
I remember there was a video I did probably ten years ago. He’s like, “I got a big, wide open hug.” So, because the girl stretched her arms really big and hugged him like a friend, he was hopeful. I think in that video she had also friend zoned him. He’s like, “I got a big wide open hug. Woo-hoo! I got blue balls! Two dates, $500 bucks, and I got blue balls. This is great, I’ve got a chance!” That’s a nice car payment. I mean, jeez.
And this woman checks virtually all my boxes — beautiful, intelligent, a great conversationalist with diverse interests and a steady career. Do you have any suggestions about how to move forward?
Yeah, I wouldn’t be wasting my time with her if it was me. But if you are crazy enough to go out on a third date, at the end of the night, what are you going to be looking for? Does she play with her hair? Does she touch your arm? Is she leaning into you? Is she bumping into you as you walk down the street? Is she standing too close when you’re next to each other somewhere, to the point where she’s bumping into you? If you’re seeing that, that’s a good sign.
Use the kiss test on her. If you’re sitting next to each other and you’re talking, and then you slowly look at her lips, and then into her eyes, and then into her lips, and then back into her eyes. And if she looks at your lips, then go for the kiss and you’ll get away with it.
My hope is that she will develop romantic or sexual attraction for me as we continue to see each other on our own and as part of this group.
“Oh, I hope she likes me.” This is a wrong mindset, dude. This is the opposite of what the book teaches. Just want you to know.
Obviously, I’d like to eventually find an escape route from the friend zone.
Well, you’re going to spend a lot of time and a lot of money. Obviously you’re younger. It’s like, I’ve been through these things when I was younger, and it’s like, if you want to reinvent the wheel, hey man, it’s your money. If you’ve got money to blow, whatever. Go for it, bro. Because what’s happening is she’s taking up the space in your life for a woman that you’re actually having sex and romance with.
So, while you’re trying to change her mind, she’s enjoying the attention and validation and the money you spend on her, while she’s looking for Chad Thundercock, and probably has Chad Thundercock coming over and rearranging her insides, and you don’t even know about him. Girls are good at keeping secrets like that. It keeps everybody from going, “Oh, she’s a slut.” They just don’t tell you.
I know you talk a lot about not accepting the friend zone from girlfriends, though this is a little different since we have never been involved romantically.
Dude, this is right in the book. It says you don’t go out on dates or women that say, “I want to be friends only.” You never agree to that. Because what’s happening is she set the stage, if you will. This is her frame. “Our world, it’s friendship only, and you agreed to play in that world.” Well, now you’ve you got blue balls, and you agreed to it.
I haven’t even kissed her yet, as I feel this might be a little much at this juncture, given what she expressed to me.
Well, if you actually knew the book and understood it, and you went out on two dates, and she’s playing with her hair, and she’s touching you, or bumping into you, or standing too close to you, and you used the kiss test on her, you would have already known by now. But you’re two dates in and you’ve got, what, $400 to $500 bucks that you’re out of pocket at this point?
I want this woman, but I also want to be respectful of what she says she wants.
Well, you shouldn’t be going out with a girl that says “friends only.”
I would normally go for the kiss on a good first date. During one of our wide-ranging discussions that happened to touch on love and relationships, she mentioned that her attraction for men tends to build up over time.
This is how it is with all women, dude. It builds over time. It starts out small, typically, and builds over time. But you have to at least meet her minimum attraction. And as the book says, that’s a 5 on a scale of 1 to 10. And right now you may be a 5 you might be a 4. But if a woman is saying 4 only, then that shows she really doesn’t think very highly of you as a romantic prospect. She doesn’t want you to get the wrong idea.
She was very clear, and you agreed to it. And so, you perpetuated a lie. You lied to her already. You’re lying to yourself and you’re lying to her. It’s a bad way to go. Again, this is in the book. And this is part of the problem. You maybe thumbed through the book once, and you watched a bunch of videos. And a lot of times where dudes are trying to get their exes back, their girlfriends have friendzoned them, because they’ve turned them off to the point where their feelings are strictly platonic. This is not the same thing. You never agree to go out on dates, or take girls out on dates, or spend money on girls who say, “Friends first” or “Friends only. I’m not interested in dating.” Just don’t do it.
You want enthusiasm? “Oh, I’d love to go. I’m so honored. I’m so glad you asked. I was hoping you’d ask. This is great. We have so much in common. You’re so handsome.” That’s what you want. There’s none of that here. See, when you don’t believe you deserve to have what you want, you’ll stay engaged with somebody like this. You’ll stay spending money on her, because deep down you don’t believe you deserve to have what you want. And so, you get involved with women that have no interest in you, because it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Then, when you spend a lot of time and a lot of money on her, you get really pissed off and frustrated, because nothing came back that you wanted. But again, it matches. Remember, as Tony Robbins said, “People will act consistently with how they view themselves to be. It doesn’t matter whether the view is accurate or not.” So, if you believe that you’re unworthy of love and would never be able to get a girl who you really like to love you back or want to be with you, you’ll go out on dates with women that say “friends first,” “friends only,” hoping to change them.
And then when it doesn’t work out, you just go, “Oh, this is my life. This is what always happens to me. All the girls I want don’t want me, and the girls I want nothing to do with are all over me.” It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. So, you need to take a step back and contemplate, “What is my belief system? What is the little tape that’s running in my head? What am I telling myself? What is my mindset? And is it a resourceful one?” Because for most people, it’s not.
Which seemed to encourage my view that I may want to proactively wait this out by playing the long game…
Where are we, five grand? Ten grand? How much money are you going to be into this girl before you finally realize, “All I’ve got is blue balls to show for it?”
…take opportunities to talk man-to-woman whenever possible, build attraction, albeit slowly, while also dating other women when I find them. Does this sound like a sensible approach to you?
Absolutely not. It’s the opposite of what I teach. But if you think you got it all figured out and you want to reinvent the wheel, it’s like, hey, man, I’ve been doing this a long time, bro. I’m 53 years old. I this was my experience in my late teenage years and my early 20s. And I figured this out in my early 20s like, this is a bad way to go. You just get blue balls, you waste a lot of time, you get really frustrated. And there’s other girls that you’re going to meet, because you obviously really like this girl, and it’s going to be hard for you to date other women, because you’re so focused on her and changing her mind. And then when other women come along, it’s like you’re not even open to it, because you don’t have a space in your life.
Is there anything else you might add to the mix?
Thanks in advance.
Well, like I said, if you’re going to go out with her one more time, pay attention to her body language. Is she playing with her hair? Is she touching your arm? Is she standing too close? Is she exposing her neck to you? If you do the kiss test, does you look at your lips? And if so, go for the kiss and then follow the normal seduction process that’s in the book. But if you don’t see any of that, no playing with their hair, no twirling around her fingers, no touching you, she’s very standoffish, her knees are pointed away from you, you do the kiss test on he, and she doesn’t look at your lips at all, that means she’s not interested romantically.
And at that point, I would say, “Well, let’s just call it a night. I’m kind of not feeling well” or “I’m kind of tired and you’ve been great, but I just don’t think this is going to work for me.” And then dip, take her home. I wouldn’t be wasting your time. But, hey, if you want to be hard headed. You want to cherry pick things from the videos, like I say, you may get some attainable success, but it won’t be sustainable. And in this case, you’re spinning your wheels. You’re wasting your time and your money on a girl who told you up front, “Absolutely not. You’re not getting anywhere with me.”
So, if you’ve got a question or a challenge and you’d like to get my help, go to UnderstandingRelationships.com, click the Products tab at the top of your screen and book a coaching session with yours truly.
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